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> I agree with Roger Stroope's objection to the
> use of bad language, though not necessarily his
> views. But it is one thing preaching to others and
> quite another to practise it oneself.
Dear Muhamed,
I think you misunderstood: Roger did not object
to Mr. Zeilweger's "use of bad language" - if you
mean the use of "bullshit". What he objected to
was Zeilweger's insulting people who stand up for
human values, such as peace and love. Here is what
he responded to:
Zeilweger:
"Especially the ones that boast this 'holier
than thou, peace & love' bullshit."
If you replace "bullshit" by 'rubbish' the remark
is just as insulting to pacifists. But since _you_
supported the war and the invasion you may, as you
say, not share this view.
Nor did Roger use "bad language" in his post to
you some three months ago. Or say anything that
might offend you. Here is what he said:
Roger:
"I would imagine that I can count the
individuals who would agree with this
article (casi members) on one hand, perhaps
on two fingers."
Roger felt that no more than five, perhaps
only one or two CASI members would agree
with the article you posted.
> I did understand the cultural connotation of
> "two fingers" in western culture but I declined
> to be dragged down to such level...
Muhamed, you misunderstood. To 'count xxx on the
fingers of one hand' is an idiomatic expression,
emphasizing 'very few'. It has nothing do to with
the 'two finger salute' you seem to be thinking
of. Besides, this gesture has _two_ meanings; one
being so rude that Roger would never make it. In
any case, one wouldn't try to convey gestures
in writing - as far as I know.
> Yours in politeness,
Poor Muhamed... I suppose you were displeased
about "yours in idiocy" too?
It reflects the speaker's state of mind, not
yours - indicating Roger felt bewildered,
stupefied, exasperated by your comment - and
the article. He might also have said 'yours in
despair' or 'in sadness'.
But you see for pacifists, such as Roger, your
comment was a bit hard to swallow: As I remember,
you posted an article glorifying the war and the
invasion with the comment that now you feel your
pre-war prognosis (let's bomb Iraq) was 'vindicated'.
Wasn't there also something about the 'end
justifying the means'?
Anyway, Roger was thinking of the Iraqis killed,
maimed, and wounded. That's why he said: "perhaps
you should go to a hospital in Iraq, any hospital
in Iraq, and see how vindicated you are."
I agree with Roger absolutely. And you seem to
be more of Mr. Zeilweger's mind. Your privilege
of course. But you can't reasonably expect to endear
yourself most to CASI members with such comments.
What puzzles me is why you keep posting this
stuff - e.g., 'kill all the looters'. Are you
trying to win CASI hearts and minds, Muhamed?
And take your latest missive:
"David Aaronovitch, Sunday August 3, 2003,
The Observer: "Inching to peace".
"Both sides got it wrong, but it is the
anti-warmongers who have greater grounds for
unhappiness."
Anti-warmongers, indeed!
Still, I do understand why you would have been
offended by such cultural misunderstanding.
Yours in sympathy (just this once)
Elga Sutter
---------------Original Message-----------------
From: "Muhamed Ali" <Muhamed.Ali@Hackney.gov.uk>
To: soc-casi-discuss@lists.cam.ac.uk
Subject: FW: [casi] Regarding 'Testimony of the Iraqi Doctor' ----
Give me a break!
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:20:56 +0100
Dear list members,
I agree with Roger Stroope's objection to the use of
bad language, though not necessarily his views. But it is one thing
preaching to others and quite another to practise it oneself. Are not
you the same person, an academic from a place of learning, who responded
to my e-mail of 6th June 2003 as follows:
[ Presenting plain-text part of multi-format email ]
In a message dated 06/06/2003 11:07:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
mali@gw.hackney.gov.uk writes:
> I urge you to read this article, especially the last two paragraphs. I
> feel
>
"I would imagine that I can count the individuals who would agree with
this
article (casi members) on one hand, perhaps on two fingers. As to your
pre-war prognosis being vindicated, perhaps you should go to a hospital
in Iraq, any hospital in Iraq, and see how vindicated you are.
Yours in idiocy,
Roger Stroope
Austin College
Sherman Texas, USA
www.austincollege.edu"
I did understand the cultural connotation of "two fingers" in western
culture but I declined to be dragged down to such level of "honest
dialogue". I left it to others on the list, some of whom must have read
it and understood it. I can not think of an appropriate saying in
English, but there is a famous verse in Arabic.
I even agree with Roger's last paragraph with the proviso of
substituting VnStroope@aol.com for dzepplin@charter.net.
Yours in politeness,
Muhamad
-----Original Message-----
From: VnStroope@aol.com [[12]mailto:VnStroope@aol.com]
Sent: 15 August 2003 14:34
To: dzepplin@charter.net; casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk
Subject: Re: [casi] Regarding 'Testimony of the Iraqi Doctor' ---- Give
me a break!
[ Presenting plain-text part of multi-format email ]
In a message dated 8/15/03 5:21:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
dzepplin@charter.net writes:
> Especially the ones that boast this 'holier
> than thou, peace & love' bullshit.
Clearly you are "here" on CASI for one purpose, to stir up trouble. You
hurl
insults at human beings who have sincere concerns, mischaracterize their
words and certainly their thoughts, oversimplify the issues, and use
foul language
when you run out of other things to write. If you had any sincere
intention
to engage the individuals on this list in honest dialogue you perhaps
would
understand how we have arrived at our conclusions. We have of course
heard the
premises from which you proceed for a very long time and I for one find
your
rhetoric tired and dated.
For me, all emails that originate from 'dzepplin@charter.net' will
receive
their due respect, which is to say none at all, I am thankful that my
delete key
works.
Roger Stroope
Northern Arizona University
Flagstaff USA
~Just 10% of our military budget spent yearly on the United States could
give
every high school graduate a college education for four years.
~Fact:the proposed $48 billion increase in military spending for next
year
(2004) is bigger than the total military budget of any other country on
earth.
###
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